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	<title>Comments on: Threat of &#8220;Spy chips&#8221; in ID cards</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.no2id.net/newsblog/2006-01/threat-of-spy-chips-in-id-cards/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.no2id.net/newsblog/2006-01/threat-of-spy-chips-in-id-cards/</link>
	<description>The latest on Identity Cards and Databases in the UK</description>
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		<title>By: nina steggar</title>
		<link>http://www.no2id.net/newsblog/2006-01/threat-of-spy-chips-in-id-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-12531</link>
		<dc:creator>nina steggar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Mar 2006 15:42:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.no2id.net/news/newsblog/?p=344#comment-12531</guid>
		<description>The point seems to be that the technology exists to track people&#039;s movements when they go in different shops for example.  So it&#039;s not going to be just making sure that you don&#039;t nick anything.  I myself envisage it to be something like creating a log of every movement a person makes in his or her life.  Going abroad for example.  I suspect men who are having affairs may have a very hard time explaining why instead of staying in London the whole business trip they have been found in Southampton.

IT companies will probably use data mining techniques to find out people&#039;s life patterns and the government will eventually change restrictions on data and just sell it on to third parties.

There are of course concerns over adding data fields to these chips.
Imagine the use that somebody like Hitler, Himmler or Heydrich would have made of this technology.  And we are asked to just trust them with it -- like the DVLC info.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point seems to be that the technology exists to track people&#8217;s movements when they go in different shops for example.  So it&#8217;s not going to be just making sure that you don&#8217;t nick anything.  I myself envisage it to be something like creating a log of every movement a person makes in his or her life.  Going abroad for example.  I suspect men who are having affairs may have a very hard time explaining why instead of staying in London the whole business trip they have been found in Southampton.</p>
<p>IT companies will probably use data mining techniques to find out people&#8217;s life patterns and the government will eventually change restrictions on data and just sell it on to third parties.</p>
<p>There are of course concerns over adding data fields to these chips.<br />
Imagine the use that somebody like Hitler, Himmler or Heydrich would have made of this technology.  And we are asked to just trust them with it &#8212; like the DVLC info.</p>
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		<title>By: John Williamson</title>
		<link>http://www.no2id.net/newsblog/2006-01/threat-of-spy-chips-in-id-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-11695</link>
		<dc:creator>John Williamson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 11:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.no2id.net/news/newsblog/?p=344#comment-11695</guid>
		<description>It also seems like the chip can easily be hacked. See here:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/01/30/dutch_biometric_passport_crack/

So, potentially a one-stop-shop for identity theft, and you might not even have to have possession of the card in the first place!

Well done HMG!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It also seems like the chip can easily be hacked. See here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/01/30/dutch_biometric_passport_crack/" rel="nofollow">http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/01/30/dutch_biometric_passport_crack/</a></p>
<p>So, potentially a one-stop-shop for identity theft, and you might not even have to have possession of the card in the first place!</p>
<p>Well done HMG!</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Gibbs</title>
		<link>http://www.no2id.net/newsblog/2006-01/threat-of-spy-chips-in-id-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-11654</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Gibbs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.no2id.net/news/newsblog/?p=344#comment-11654</guid>
		<description>Some points on the whole discussion:

- aren&#039;t there already RFID readers in tube barriers?
- don&#039;t they already undertake useful data analysis based on the movements of individual tube travelers?
- Who says you have to be discrete about surveilling crowds? Police forward intelligence units are pretty blatant aren&#039;t they?
- Encryption? Who said the data was encrypted? 
- It was my understanding (from Spy blog) that the range was typically 30 meters.

SJG</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some points on the whole discussion:</p>
<p>- aren&#8217;t there already RFID readers in tube barriers?<br />
- don&#8217;t they already undertake useful data analysis based on the movements of individual tube travelers?<br />
- Who says you have to be discrete about surveilling crowds? Police forward intelligence units are pretty blatant aren&#8217;t they?<br />
- Encryption? Who said the data was encrypted?<br />
- It was my understanding (from Spy blog) that the range was typically 30 meters.</p>
<p>SJG</p>
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		<title>By: Clint</title>
		<link>http://www.no2id.net/newsblog/2006-01/threat-of-spy-chips-in-id-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-11635</link>
		<dc:creator>Clint</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.no2id.net/news/newsblog/?p=344#comment-11635</guid>
		<description>RFID tags are *not* passive, they are a powered device that transmit data upon request. They use the RF field generated by the reader to power the transmitter. If the device is constantly in the presence of a strong enough RF field of the correct frequency, it will be powered and ready to transmit data on request.

To say;
2) Generally, the area of the transmitter needs to be at least the square of the distance from which it’s read. 

Is absolute rubbish, the author of that comment has adequately demonstrated that &#039;A little knowledge is a dangerous thing&#039; The author is misapplying the Inverse Square law, there are some excellent examples and explanations of this on the web.
Commonly used RFID tags can be read from several metres away, Things like the Dart Tag or other such subscription Toll systems are a perfect example. 

It would be trivial to mount RFID readers at strategic points around city centres and monitor a person&#039;s movements.
It would also be trivial to build a portable reader which could be concealed about a person&#039;s clothing, harvesting data as said person walked around (providing the, hopefully, strong encryption could be broken)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RFID tags are *not* passive, they are a powered device that transmit data upon request. They use the RF field generated by the reader to power the transmitter. If the device is constantly in the presence of a strong enough RF field of the correct frequency, it will be powered and ready to transmit data on request.</p>
<p>To say;<br />
2) Generally, the area of the transmitter needs to be at least the square of the distance from which it’s read. </p>
<p>Is absolute rubbish, the author of that comment has adequately demonstrated that &#8216;A little knowledge is a dangerous thing&#8217; The author is misapplying the Inverse Square law, there are some excellent examples and explanations of this on the web.<br />
Commonly used RFID tags can be read from several metres away, Things like the Dart Tag or other such subscription Toll systems are a perfect example. </p>
<p>It would be trivial to mount RFID readers at strategic points around city centres and monitor a person&#8217;s movements.<br />
It would also be trivial to build a portable reader which could be concealed about a person&#8217;s clothing, harvesting data as said person walked around (providing the, hopefully, strong encryption could be broken)</p>
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		<title>By: PerfDave</title>
		<link>http://www.no2id.net/newsblog/2006-01/threat-of-spy-chips-in-id-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-11039</link>
		<dc:creator>PerfDave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jan 2006 01:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.no2id.net/news/newsblog/?p=344#comment-11039</guid>
		<description>martinb: If RFID tags can only be read at close proximity, why are the American government telling us that they can be read from several yards away in new ID cards? Source: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-border18jan18,0,1125973.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

Even that range on RFID readers is only limited by radio-frequency emissions legislation; if you&#039;re prepared to ignore that, you can get much larger range. I&#039;d not heard anything about the area of th transmitter before, do you have any good sources?

&quot;Schneier on Security&quot; http://www.schneier.com/blog/ is a good read for news on RFID and other aspects of security and privacy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>martinb: If RFID tags can only be read at close proximity, why are the American government telling us that they can be read from several yards away in new ID cards? Source: <a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-border18jan18,0,1125973.story?coll=la-headlines-nation" rel="nofollow">http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-border18jan18,0,1125973.story?coll=la-headlines-nation</a></p>
<p>Even that range on RFID readers is only limited by radio-frequency emissions legislation; if you&#8217;re prepared to ignore that, you can get much larger range. I&#8217;d not heard anything about the area of th transmitter before, do you have any good sources?</p>
<p>&#8220;Schneier on Security&#8221; <a href="http://www.schneier.com/blog/" rel="nofollow">http://www.schneier.com/blog/</a> is a good read for news on RFID and other aspects of security and privacy.</p>
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		<title>By: martinb</title>
		<link>http://www.no2id.net/newsblog/2006-01/threat-of-spy-chips-in-id-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-10989</link>
		<dc:creator>martinb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.no2id.net/news/newsblog/?p=344#comment-10989</guid>
		<description>*Sigh* yet more un-researched speculation about RFID.

While I do think that making ID card data readable via RFID is a *bad* idea, I wouldn&#039;t mind a *wee* bit less of the hysteria, lest it taint what is a valid argument.

Anyway:
1) RFID is (generally) a passive device, not a transmitter. You need a specific reader in close proximity.

2) Generally, the area of the transmitter needs to be at least the square of the distance from which it&#039;s read. So general scanning of crowds without being bleedin&#039; obvious is unlikely. Not that it&#039;d be impossible to build a reader into (say) tube barriers. The data analysis requirements for making any useful sense out of the travel habits of the tube-travelling public does strike me as putting it into the range of prohibitively difficult.

Didn&#039;t the US govt propose this for their passports, and then suggest that the passports would then have a metallic lining to prevent skimming? Because if you think about it, 3rd party readable RFID-enabled ID Cards are *heaven* for identity thieves...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*Sigh* yet more un-researched speculation about RFID.</p>
<p>While I do think that making ID card data readable via RFID is a *bad* idea, I wouldn&#8217;t mind a *wee* bit less of the hysteria, lest it taint what is a valid argument.</p>
<p>Anyway:<br />
1) RFID is (generally) a passive device, not a transmitter. You need a specific reader in close proximity.</p>
<p>2) Generally, the area of the transmitter needs to be at least the square of the distance from which it&#8217;s read. So general scanning of crowds without being bleedin&#8217; obvious is unlikely. Not that it&#8217;d be impossible to build a reader into (say) tube barriers. The data analysis requirements for making any useful sense out of the travel habits of the tube-travelling public does strike me as putting it into the range of prohibitively difficult.</p>
<p>Didn&#8217;t the US govt propose this for their passports, and then suggest that the passports would then have a metallic lining to prevent skimming? Because if you think about it, 3rd party readable RFID-enabled ID Cards are *heaven* for identity thieves&#8230;</p>
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